One time Jesus was sitting in the temple courts teaching a crowd of people when a group of religious leaders barged in on him and made a big scene by bringing in a woman who was caught in adultery. They started quoting The Law, which is a part of the Christian Bible, to justify stoning this woman to death. They badgered Jesus, trying to get him to respond with an answer or a verdict.
You see, this was their chance. Scripture says, this was an opportunity for the “religious leaders” to trap Jesus. The dilemma was this: condemn the hooker; take the law into his own hands by condoning immediate execution via stoning (illegal) or let her go free, unpunished, thereby denying the Holy Word.
I wonder if Jesus really felt pressured? Scripture says he took awhile to answer; drawing in the sand. I mean it looks like there is no way out; its like he spent time contemplating what to do next. Or maybe, more importantly, he was trying to figure out how to help us understand.
And what about the crowd? What did they think? Do you think they were rooting for the woman or the stoning? How ridiculously barbaric is stoning? Did some people enjoy that or feel like they were righteously purging the community? I can imagine maybe one of the married women in the crowd standing up and saying, “YA, IVE SEEN THIS HOOKER AROUND HERE BEFORE! I DON’T WANT HER AROUND MY HUSBAND! I DON’T WANT MY KIDS GROWING UP AROUND JUNK LIKE THIS, STONE HER!”
Maybe other people jeered similar stuff about the community or “bringing down the neighborhood.” Maybe one guy stood up and said, “WE HAVE TO TAKE A STAND! WE CAN’T STAND FOR IMMORALITY LIKE THIS, THE BIBLE SAYS SO!”
And Jesus just sat there listening. Is he still listening? Are people not still saying stuff like this today? Now that the Prop. 8 is cooling down a bit, maybe we should talk about how our community responded to this? The bottom line is that Christians, in general, really seemed to get excited about the gay marriage issue. As a licensed minister and future father (eventually), I understand that Prop. 8 is a monumental event and extremely pivotal for our nation. But my thoughts keep going back to Jesus, “trapped” in front of a crowd; religious people making a scene.
If you ask me, I think Jesus did take a stand that day. I think he took a stand for compassion, for forgiveness, for love.
…And if you don’t know the end of the story, it is in the Bible, the book of John, chapter 8.
I like it…
Jesus did take a stand that day. For compassion, for forgiveness, for love just as you said. He also made a statement about our judgmental human nature. That we so badly need to lay down at his feet.
I get the opposition, really I do. I just don’t necessarily agree.
My biggest issue with the angry masses of “Christians” that made a commotion over prop 8 is that they did it in the name of Jesus. Would Jesus have reeeeally done that? Were any of those casting stones at people, and NOT a cause, really blameless to cast the first stone. Had they really lived a sinless life in need of no forgiveness themselves?
I like it Justice…
True. He is so refreshing!
I agree 100% that we all need Jesus and if that is your point than we are on the same page. However, if your point is that Christians should under the banner of LOVE and COMPASSION toss the cross for a peace sign, the sacraments for a water bong, upright living for heathenism, biblical marriage for ‘friends-with-benefits,’ the book of Romans for the Oprah book of the month – than we are not on the same page. Furthermore, reading the whole bible including the parts where Jesus comes again and throws people in hell for eternity will help provide some additional insight as to the stance that Jesus is taking.
The book of Romans VS. the book of Oprah, hahaha
…if only the Apostle Paul had a book club!
I don’t think I would necessarily draw the conclusion that the Christian community in the Prop. 8 situation is really like the crowd in this story. I understand that some Christians are hateful or vicious in their approach to homosexuality, but not everyone is. (Though the media would show a different picture.) Neither are all those who voted in favor of Prop. 8 likely to go out and verbally abuse a homosexual. There is a difference between taking a stand with sinful self-righteousness (which is what the crowd did in the story and what *some* Christians have done now)and taking a stand to uphold Kingdom morals in a country that is quickly going the other direction. I do not hate homosexuals because I see them as normal human beings who Christ loves and I am called to love. But that does not mean I necessarily want California to model itself after their lifestyles. Thus, I do not think that Jesus would look at me and think I “cast the first stone” by casting my vote in favor of Prop. 8. I know I am a messed up person, just like anyone else in humanity. And I agree that we should stand for compassion, forgiveness and love just like Christ did. But this is a both/and situation, not an either/or.
Articulated well. My thoughts are more on Jesus’ reaction in this situation as a model rather than the issue at hand. I don’t think how someone voted on prop. 8 would in any way be considered “throwing a stone,” yikes!
In no way did Jesus take a stand!!! Jesus took a sat that day. That day was the first time that another person didn’t stand all over that woman. Instead He was there. Simple… just being there for people demonstrates much more that standing on their backs. Sitting caused a greater stand. She was empowered for probably the first time ever in her life..love, compassion, forgiveness.
When we are faced with two options interlaced with human nature given by human nature, IE stone her for immediate justice or deny scripture. We need to take a sit for a third option interlaced with God’s divine wisdom.
Prop 8 was black and white…yes or no
Is what prop 8 stands for, black and white? Can we just say yes or no to someones life style. Or can we opt for something different? Something better?
How would God speak or talk or communicate to the community of prop 8?
I love what you said about how what Jesus did empowered her. He did take a stand, He took a stand for HER. And if she was “caught in adultery,” then were was the dude who was caught with her? According to what standard should he be punished?
-Justice-
Yeah, I believe we as the church really do need to watch how we communicate our ethics, morals, and what have you. We have a lot of ground to make up in “public relations” because of the loud mouth few that give us a bad name. Though we are warned the world will hate us, I think that some Christians who are insensitive in their approach (or just plain abusive) give the world a little too much reason to hate us. Thanks for the clarification. I agree.
-Matt-
In this case I do believe that Prop. 8 was a black and white issue because of the nature of our voting system. We had the choice to either say yes to it or no to it–there was no middle ground or third option. If there were a better option, then I would be willing to hear it; however, in this instance Christians who chose to vote on Prop. 8 were only given two choices. And respectfully yes, I do think we can make those kinds of judgments about people’s lifestyles because the Bible puts forth certain standards. What we need to be careful not to do is to condemn the people living those lifestyles. As you and Justice have said we must show love, compassion, and forgiveness to the people without condoning the sin. Jesus told her that he didn’t condemn her, but he also told her not to sin anymore. The tricky part (where most people get hung up) is communicating both the grace and the repentance equally.
Justice, you are the man! EdubC baby!
Interesting thoughts, which I am glad that you brought up!
I like to think that this is not about sides but about motivation and the human condition.
I remember driving down a popular street in san diego, on one side was a crowd of angry and hurt people shouting “no on 8″ and “stop hating”. On the other side of the street I found the same attitude, voice and motivation but just with a different agenda, shouting “protect marriage” or “yes on 8″. This broke my heart because this was outside of a church and If wasn’t informed on what the issues were then I would have no ability to point out which side was more hateful or more loving.
Love gives us a voice.
Sadly, I feel that christians hid behind fear, misunderstanding and maybe even hate when it came to the homosexual agenda. Prop 8 was not motivated by love, at least from what I saw.
I don’t say this lightly but I feel that if the supporters of prop 8 were motivated by love than this conversation would have not started during the election but it would have started with the building of relationship and the pursuit to show authentic care and love to the homosexual community. this conversation would have started in coffee shop or bar or in our own homes. Where we showed Jesus to these people who feel marginalized and put down.
I don’t think that Jesus would have argued with the ethics of gay marriage, but i do think he would have handled it WAY differently. He would have called us to show the cross not a picket sign. I think if we want a voice then we first need to earn that with our activism of compassion.
If people vote for prop 8… be motivated by LOVE, and let that show more often than on an election year.
peace and grace to you
Benji,
“I like to think that this is not about sides but about motivation and the human condition.”
I have one word in response to your statement, B-I-N-G-O!
You bring up an interesting and thought provoking issue. Though with Seth, I find it hard to see the linkage with Prop 8. If prop 8 was a call to jail people or lynch homosexuals, maybe. But Prop 8 simply limited marriage to that between a man and a women, nothing more. In fact, most of the “hate speak” actually came from the homosexual community, especially after the proposition passed. Thus, the linkage with the present passage is weak at best.
On the other hand, that you are willing to point out that Jesus did not get caught into an argument, but rather talked about their personal walk accompanied by the hope of forgiveness for the repentant. Note he did not accept unequivocally the “prostitute” as you call her, but gave her the condition that she “go and sin no more.” If we wish to make a linkage to the homosexual debate, Jesus might say to us, “who has not lusted in his heart, thus committing immorality…,” But he would likely then turn to the homosexual community with, “God loves you, but you must go and sin no more!” All too often today the church is condemned for their arrogant approach on the subject–sometimes rightfully so–but all too often without the corresponding call to the sinner for repentance and a changed life. Humility for the church must also be accompanied by a loving, though clear, call to repentance and a changed life. Just a thought…
Dr. Clayton,
I like your summary, “Humility for the church must also be accompanied by a loving, though clear, call to repentance and a changed life. “.
Prop. 8 is a hot topic, but my thoughts in this blog were more on how Jesus reacted and what his behavior modeled to everyone around, including us today. There is Plan Parenthood down the street from my house with Christians standing at the corner protesting all the time. How do you think Jesus would respond? Do you think we can look at this incident in John 8 and gain any insight?
Justice,
I’m not arguing for or against what you have said. I would simply like to suggest that the church should be concerned about marriage and that the government should be concerned about civil unions. In my opinion, marriage only happens when a man and a woman are joined together in the sacrament of marriage. A judge has no right before God to do this…only a minister/priest/what have you. I don’t want the government telling me (or the church) who can and can’t be married in God’s eyes. Nor do I think that the church should be telling the government who can can who can’t be joined in a civil union. As citizens of California, we can let our voice be heard in our vote. As citizens of heaven, our voices should be heard in every aspect of our life. Jesus did not condemn, but he did correct on a very personal level. This issue is simply bigger than us vs. them.
Dave, this is clear and great way to look at marriage and civil union!
With a name like Justice, why don’t you follow the law? Wouldn’t stoning the woman have been justice? When did Jesus say to DISOBEY the law? He did not condemn the law, in fact he said he came to “fulfill the law, not to destroy it” (Matt 5:17). In this scene with the prostitute, Jesus clearly did not follow the law; neither did he condemn it. Jesus never did away with biblical law. He never preached against such things as stoning your children, executing a man for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, slavery, or the hundreds of other reasons to execute people.
If Jesus claimed to support and ‘fulfill’, not condemn, unjust brutal laws; then Jesus might as well have thrown the first stone. Clearly Jesus did not think it WRONG to execute a woman for having unwed sex. DO YOU THINK IT WRONG TO EXECUTE ALL ADULTERERS? If you do think the death penalty is too harsh for adultery; then you are denying and rejecting the laws that Jesus came to fulfill. You are rejecting your own bible and denying Jesus himself. If think the death penalty is appropriate for adultery, then you are one sick puppy.
Justice and blog readers; clearly you selectively read small parts of the bible . With so little reading, perhaps you could manage to read this whole one page article by Mark Twain.
http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles/comment/twain01.htm
Then again, perhaps it’s too much reading for you guys. So i’ll sum it up:
“The text remained; the practice changed, that was all.”
Mark Twain is talking about YOU! Hell, slavery, genocide, and the multiple laws of execution are in the bible; but you modern Christians deny the text and God’s rules. You change your practice to fit a modern, more civilized, society. If you truly followed God’s sacred word, then you should not only be against gay marriage… you should be out there KILLING every last gay person! The bible teaches that it is JUSTICE to kill homosexuals. Why don’t you follow God’s word? I’ll tell you why… because morality does not come from bronze-age books written by men, it comes from YOUR OWN HEART.
Check out this humorous depiction of ‘the laws’ that every last one of you are NOT fulfilling and are willfully DISOBEYING.
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/
I read the article; it was a pretty fascinating synopsis of the history of imperfect people (and aren’t we all?) making decisions on behalf of the church. My only question is in response to your statement that “morality comes from our heart.” Does that mean that morality is not the same for everyone, but rather contingent upon each individual person’s heart? What I mean is, if someone is evil, lets say a child molester, does his own heart dictate his own standard of morality?
Taking Jesus’ approach to a sinner and extrapolating it out to his view on society and marriage is a new one. This is an interesting premise but I don’t think it applies to a broader view on society. There are other places in New Testament where Peter, John, and James took firm stands against lifestyles of sin. The main Christian community is not angry but just took a stand when voting.
“Or maybe, more importantly, he was trying to figure out how to help us understand.”
I have never thought of it from that perspective of Jesus thinking about future generations of readers seeing how He reacted.
We must be like Jesus in the midst of those who struggle with homosexuality. We must approach each beloved child of God with overwhelming love and acceptance. So much love in-fact that we will have earned the right to speak into their lives. Then as they are being healed and restored they will see that they are indeed struggling with sin and they will “go and sin no more”.
I couldn’t agree more, well said. Man I had a blast with you guys tonight!
This comment is directed to the above commentator who is apparently named God’s Justice. (By the way, is that what your friends call you or do you go by GJ for short?)
So GJ, I hate to burst the bubble on you neat Mark Twain Cult but your grasp on Christianity is defunct. You may want to try putting down your cute little Lego-Story-Bible and opening a scholarly translation (NKJ, ESV) for a thorough reading or re-reading of Romans and Galatians. You see GJ, there you will find that Christians are free from the law’s you mentioned since they have been fulfilled in Christ. Also, let me advise you to not put too much stock in Modernism (which is the consequence of the brand of Enlightenment advocated by Twain in the article you recommended), since it has failed to deliver on its promises of a utopian society. Or perhaps you haven’t read about what happened with Communist Russia. Oh and GJ, if you need me to illustrate the fiasco using Lego’s and email you the pictures just ask.
We Christians are so use to having all issues of life boiled down to just few simple verses that we often don’t know how to deal with something as complex as gay-marriage. We are just not used to struggling with issues as we should. The gay issue is not an “either-or” issue. Can I be against gay-marriage, but not against gays? What would you, as a Christian rather see, a gay man staying gay or becoming a Christian but still gay? Can a man be gay and Christian at the same time? Do we have to demand a gay person to become straight first before becoming a Christian?
Right before the election, When I told my gay neighbors I was voting yes on 8, they laughed and said, “we expected that from you.” And yet, they are still our good friends and neighbors. I took my stand by loving and respecting them, but letting them know that I don’t agree with them.
By the way, could someone tell me what is Bobby Key talking about??? He is way over my head.
In some of the ancient traditions, it is said that Jesus was writing the sins of the people in the sand. It is an intercessory device. It is common in charismatic prayer circles for sins, soul ties, negative affirmations to be written or paper which is burned or on the ground which is then wiped out after remittance. Capital punishment among the Jews was also a very holy act. Even the accused was given the chance to glorify God before judgment and execution of sentence, as in the case of Achan and his family in Joshua 7. What the Lord was affirming in the story of the adulterer in John 8 was that the meting out of judgments was a Divine prerogative…only God and the Godly can understand why and how they are to be meted out.
My NT professor once talked about God’s “severe mercy,” and how the Lord’s justice is not so much punitive as restorative. It is meant to restore righteousness, which is defined as the right relationship with Him. Therefore, the purpose of Divine justice is to remove sin, not necessarily to destroy the sinner. What the Son of God was then doing in the above-mentioned pericope was to exegete the spirit of the Law and not merely to follow blindy its letter. He was affirming that, since He was the only one without sin, that the judgment in that particular situation was His prerogative alone, and I think the people sensed the weight of that responsibility and backed off.
In my ministry, I encounter people from the LGBT (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender) community a great deal, and most of them think we, Christians, ought to be convicted of hate crimes. In my opinion, I think the faith-based community struggles with its hermeneutic on gender-alternative issues, not because of its fundamental beliefs, but because of its dialogue, its evangelistic approach. I call it “repent or die” theology, and it makes everyone else nervous. If you’ve ever dealt with an addict, you would know that the sin, the addiction, has become such an integral part of that person’s life that to wrench it out forcibly could cause great harm to the person. You need to be highly skilled to be an interventionist in that regard.
Our challenge is to convince a sinner that the sin cannot be part of that person’s being, that it would eventually lead to catastrophic consequences in this life. But we don’t “throw the baby out with the baby water.” As pastors, it is our job to get them to the point of repentance, and then it becomes their choice. If we do our jobs right, then they will be equipped to make the right decision. It is equally our challenge to be steadfast in dealing with “politically correct” paradigms, knowing that they change with every socially-acceptable idea that comes around. It is our central belief, as Christians, that the Word of God should be the basis of ethical and cultural imperatives. We should think and act, then, in such a manner to convince non-Christians of this fact.
I have to partially agree with ShahZam, we all too often boil our arguments into “proof-text” size snippets without understanding the deeper complexities. On the other hand, I think one can be a Christian and struggle with gay lust, but I don’t think one can really be a gay Christian.
Now before you overreact, Paul is much harsher… excluding not just the gay community, “Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Co 6:9-11; cf. Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5).
Unfortunately there are a lot of compromised Christians who rail on homosexuals, but whose own immoral (or greedy) lifestyle calls into question their faith (cf. James 2:14-17), and who may just be surprised on the day the Lord returns (Matt 7:21; 24:12-13; Luke 18:8). Actually, if you take the time to read these passages, may the Lord be gracious to us all!
Wow, did I just say that? I’m not a person filled with condemnation, but then again, I’m sick of a self righteous church who does not take the Bible seriously, but wishfully believes themselves as so special that they don’t have to take obedience seriously (James 1:22-25; Matt 28:20; Phil 3:12-16). So, let’s start by being/living truly Christian. Only then will anyone, including the homosexual community, take us seriously!
Clayton mentioned the verse…
“Do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers—none of these will inherit the kingdom of God. And this is what some of you used to be. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Co 6:9-11; cf. Gal 5:19-21; Eph 5:5).
Isn’t it interesting that Greed and Homosexuality are mentioned in the same category as those who will not inherit the kingdom of God? Christians had no problem voting against a homosexual agenda but a large number had no problem with voting for a high-speed train which would cost multiple millions of dollars which could go to health care for the impoverished! I wish I would have seen picket signs for Anti-Greed as well.
So where do you stand? I love you man.. i’m calling you right now for our weekly prayer time.
haha I affirm what the Bible affirms, especially the parts about being the hands and feet and not just the mouth.
Well put Clayton and Benji. If not for the GRACE…We all deserve nothing but hell except, of course, for the guy who calls himself God’s justice. I think, he got it all figured out. After all, you ARE saved by your perfect theology
By the way, Is this the Clayton with a ministry in Hollywood?
No, the one with a Ph.D. in New Testament. :0
Actually, I’m from Orange County…
justicecoleman “Does that mean that morality is not the same for everyone, but rather contingent upon each individual person’s heart? What I mean is, if someone is evil, lets say a child molester, does his own heart dictate his own standard of morality?”
Yes and no. Morals are created by people. If there was only one person on this planet, would there be morals? Let that one sink in for a bit.
Or, since you seem to think god ‘makes’ morals; if there was only god, sitting there by herself, would she have morals? Would there be morality?
As for a ‘standard’ of morality… there is no standard. Morals are not absolute. They are born, live, and die, and are constantly evolving. An example is that of homosexuality being immoral. It is pitiful seeing Christians having gone from executing gays to now having weak discussions like this one on your blog.
Bobby Key; You’re a dick. Read your bible… ALL OF IT.
ShahZam “We Christians are so use to having all issues of life boiled down to just few simple verses that we often don’t know how to deal with something as complex as gay-marriage”.
It’s not complex ShahZam. Here it is boiled down in two verses for you. Now get out there and start executing the detestable abominous homosexuals, the way Muslims do. At least they obey their holy writ.
“Lev. 18:22, “You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”
Lev. 20:13, “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their bloodguiltness is upon them”
Pastor Michael Mendoza, “In some of the ancient traditions, it is said that Jesus was writing the sins of the people in the sand.” Where does it say that? Adding to the bible are we pastor? Not unusual. I’d love if you read the Mark Twain article too.
Pastor Michael Mendoza, “Capital punishment among the Jews was also a very holy act.”
Numbers 15:32-36 (KJV)
“And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.”
Holy act indeed. People that follow bronze-age superstitious mythical texts are lost.
ShahZam “We all deserve nothing but hell except, of course, for the guy who calls himself God’s justice. I think, he got it all figured out.”
You are correct! I, and a multitude of others, are figuring out that there is no god, hell, heaven, fairies, angels, trolls, or Santa. And we are very angry at the false prophets that are perpetuating these lies and taking people’s money to further perpetuate the lies.